Morality. Right and Wrong.

Where does our morality come from?  How do we know right from wrong?
It scares me when christians ask "how are you moral without God?"

I hear religious people in debates and conversations all the time suggest that atheists are rapists and murderers, that they are angry and violent because they have nothing stopping them from being that way. That atheists can have no morals because they don't believe in a higher authority.
that "without religion you can't hire enough police"

That scares us. Is the only thing stopping religious people from raping and murdering the fear of a punishment from God. I sure hope not.

Now,  I haven't done any advance study into psychology, neuroscience or morality but I am a living breathing human being so lets think this through.

Morality is obviously important to the the overall survival of any social animal. One might argue that on an individual level selfishness would lead to a better chance of survival but that doesn't add up. Anytime we drive on a highway we put our lives into strafers hands and it pays to be conscientious of all the other people on the road. It even angers us when people are not conscientious to us. If people stopped obeying the laws because they felt like it the world would be a more dangerous place. We all enter this more or less unspoken agreement. I won't swerve into oncoming traffic if you don't. No one ever thinks to themselves I shouldn't swerve suddenly into traffic because God might punish me or God would look unfavorable at it. We don't do that because if people did the world would be more dangerous for all of us. We are social animals by nature and being altruistic is in everyones best interest, generally.

I have heard the argument that morality comes from God even if you don't believe in him. Where else would you get it?
If all morality comes from God, then all morality would be the same. If morality comes from God it surely wouldn't be something that I could adjust or alter to fit my desires it would be ingrained in me and everyone else. We would all have exactly the same views on what is right and what is wrong.
and you would expect religious people who are in touch with God to be more moral simply because they understand it better.

And if morality came from God then anything he said was moral and right would be.

Well, it turns out that morality isn't so black and white. We all have different takes on morality. Some things are easy. If I kick a puppy not only will anyone who sees it be repulsed and hopefully kick me back. but even I would feel guilty about it. Kicking a puppy is clearly wrong. but its when we venture into grey areas that morality becomes trickier. Its wrong to steal. Is it less wrong to steal a loaf of bread to feed you hungry daughter? Is it less wrong to steal if you steal from the rich to help the needy? We are all going to have different opinions on questions like these and they are all with merit.
while morality has black and white areas it also has grey areas, areas that wouldn't exist if we got our morals from an absolute authority.
So it seems we have an innate sense of of morality passed on from being a social animal but it also is effected by our experiences, and our chemistry.
If our morals came from an absolute authority, namely the Bible, then they wouldn't change. At least not without a angelic decree of some kind. 500 years ago it was commonplace for a 30-40 year old man to marry an 11 year old girl so he could  get the most children possible and this was normal and seen as moral. Today it is only seen that way in the most backwards corners of the earth. Morals evolve with society.

If the bible is the absolute authority on morality then we have some problems. The Bible 100% condones slavery. No doubt about it. Now to be clear, the bible does not say slavery is bad. It does not say "thou shalt not own another person" If it did that would be amazing. it would have been way ahead of its time and that would be quoted as reason enough to prove the Bible as being morally superior.
But just by not saying its wrong that doesn't mean the bible says it right.
Its when the bible, the word of God as written by man, Spells out how to own a slave and how to beat a slave. Thats when the bible condones slavery.
Exodus 22
"when a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, then he shall be avenged. but if he survives a day or too then he is not to be avenged for he is his money"

This is God speaking to Moses. "For he is his money"
How anyone can say the bible is the source for morality with a straight face is beyond me.

Now I understand if that you gently dismiss that last part about slavery. If you believe in the the goodness of the bible then how could it support or condone slavery. and if it did then it would throw a wrench into everything. If the bible is the Foundation of your morality to accept that it condones slavery and other things as bad a slavery would be faith shattering. But the bible does condone slavery. 100%. so either Slavery was at one time a moral practice or it never was and the Bible is wrong about that. Think about that.

I have heard all kinds of twists and turns for how this is actually ok. that slaves were treated good back then and God couldn't just throwout slavery during that age. Its all bullshit. Slavery was terrible throughout history its terrible now. and what good is a moral God if he can't do something about a moral scourge.

There are plenty of awful things in the Bible besides slavery. How about God drowning millions of people. the estimated population of the earth at that time would have been about 3 million people.
Now God says they were all bad, but how many pregnant women were there? How many children under 5 years old? And God could do anything other than horribly drown them. Now I don't believe in a flood that covered the earth because there is no evidence for it at all. (thats another post all together) but if I did. Thats pretty evil. thats not a very moral thing to do.  the list of immoral things that God does goes on and on. Now if you believe the bible is allegory. Then the morals taken from these stories can be good. Faith and trust and obedience.  But if you believe that they actually happened then you have to believe that God is twisted and amoral or you have to be twisted and amoral yourself.

If the story of Job is an allegory then the moral is having faith in God even in times of hardship.
If its true then God killed Jobs children just to prove a point.

But if Morality comes from the bible then we should also see evidence of that in society. Are christians more likely to be good people. The answer is no.

Divorce rates in Religious states are higher than less religious states. The more religious a country in the world is the more likely it is a woman will get raped there. Atheists make up a very small percentage of inmates in prison, mush smaller than their percentage in the general population. I can point to countless reports of priests molesting children or pastors stealing money from their congregation. or studies that showed religious people on their way to a sermon on the good Sumatran stepping over and ignoring a person in need.  But I don't want to have it seem like I'm making the reverse argument. that atheists are somehow more moral. No no.. I know plenty of very good decent moral people, who believe that there moral center comes from the bible. That may be only because they haven't read it, but they believe it.

There are two tenants of Christianity that have always puzzled me in regards to morality. the belief that all sins are equal i.e that lying is that same as murder, that thinking about sex with a women is exactly the same as raping her. And the Belief that no matter what the sin simply ask and you shall be forgiven. These two beliefs as staple of the christian foundation are fundamentally morally bankrupt.
Can you imagine if we ran our legal system with this code. There would be no justice. No punishment. If any time you went before a judge you just had to say sincerely "My bad sorry"
one of my favorite religious jokes illustrates why this is a ridiculous belief system.

When I was young I used to pray for god to bring me a bike.
When I got older I realized thats not how God works
so I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness
now I have a bike.

I think that there are Good people out there and there are some bad people, in all walks of life no matter your creed or color or nationality, no matter your class or your status, most people seem to be good and in most situations just and kind. And then there are some others that screw it up for everyone.

Relgion has to sell you on this idea that you need it in your life to be good to be fulfilled to see wonder and hope but its all just snake oil. You have all those things without religion.

I find it ridiculous when some says " if you don't believe in some kind of God then whats the point of living. whats the point of being good."

It reminds me of a quote from a film called Lion in Winter:

Prince Richard: [the sons - in the dungeon - think they hear Henry approach] He's here. He'll get no satisfaction out of me. He isn't going to see me beg. 
Prince Geoffrey: My you chivalric fool... as if the way one fell down mattered. 
Prince Richard: When the fall is all there is, it matters.

If you believe this is a dress rehearsal and all you have to do is be friends with Jesus and you get eternal life, then why does it matter how you live here. it only matters to the extent that it gets you into heaven. But if this is all there is. If you live this life and it is all you have then it matters a great deal how you live it. 


Religion has to sell you on this idea that you need it in your life to be good, to be fulfilled, to see wonder and hope but its all just snake oil. You have all those things without religion.



"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." Steven Weinberg